Curse

Rhunex · May 29, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildi

The biggest problem is: Eles don't do shit damage with elemental spells to lvl 20-28 enemys.

AND in gw factions you don't fight against lvl 3 enemys (whee my fireball did 300 dmg), you fight lvl 20-28 mobs (omg my 100 dmg fireball didn't do 30 dmg)

Necros have shadow damage, its great, 40 shadow damage deals usually 40 shadow damage or more to lvl 3 and 40 shadow damage or more to lvl 28 mobs.

Eles don't have this. E/N anyone ?

Actually yes, my ele is originally an E/N(I've had more prof changes than MJ has had plastic surgery O.O)

Anyways, you're saying elementalists don't do a lot of damage to level 20-28s. While this is true, it is also true that if you're facing such a group, it's PvE, and there would be more of them(I know this seems obvious, but I seem to need to derive everything in my explanations). And while a spell like Rodgort's Invocation may end up only doing 40 or so fire damage to an enemy(without elemental power glyph or w/e it is) it doesn't do it to a single enemy. I think what a lot of people who are against elementalists are failing to grasp is the fact that elementalist builds(good ones) don't attack one enemy, they attack multiple enemies. And Rodgort's Invocation happens to have quite a large attack radius, so it's not like a "Oh yeah, it COULD hit multiple people but probably won't because they spread out" kind of thing. And don't tell me mobs in PvE spread out, because they don't. I can use anything from adjacent to nearby and get multiple enemies hit with a spell. I don't use those damage over time spells, by the way, like Meteor Shower. It has great damage, but even the AI isn't dumb enough to stand in it for multiple hits, meaning you spend 25 energy for a meteor, and that's already a spell for 5 energy.

And it's not just fire that can accomplish such a thing, there's also some great earth spells(most notably, the new Dragon Stomp, which does quite a bit of damage, with a knockdown).

And please, don't argue to me that ele's can't do more damage than a warrior to a single enemy, I know that's true, but great elementalist builds don't attack one enemy, they attack multiple enemies(just for those less mentally able, this obviously means elementalists that attack, not one that does something else like wards or healing)

Symbol · May 29, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

You could fix the elementalist problem in PvE by reversing the "AI update" that made most AoE fire skills impotent

Or instead of making the monsters dumber, you could, you know, make those skills actually worth something. That way they're worth it in both PvP and PvE!

Ensign · May 29, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhunex

And please, don't argue to me that ele's can't do more damage than a warrior to a single enemy, I know that's true, but great elementalist builds don't attack one enemy, they attack multiple enemies(just for those less mentally able, this obviously means elementalists that attack, not one that does something else like wards or healing)

Eles cannot deal more damage to multiple enemies in a small AoE than a Ranger or Necromancer could. This is partially a function of recharges, and partially a function of their attacks being affected heavily by armor.

Peace,
-CxE

dgb · May 29, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhunex

And it's not just fire that can accomplish such a thing, there's also some great earth spells(most notably, the new Dragon Stomp, which does quite a bit of damage, with a knockdown).

Dragon Stomp is a copy of Earthquake... It's nothing new, and adds little to the earth line.

Undivine · May 29, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Dragon Stomp is a copy of Earthquake... It's nothing new, and adds little to the earth line.

Well if anything, it allows you to use it twice in a row, and the second one won't be interrupted because all your enemies are on their backs.

Bokocasso · May 29, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Actually, the point is to get them on their backs, so if wouldn't be worth being used on foes who are already knocked down. But that is another topic, we all know that there are a lot of duplicates. And I really hope that this is going to get fixed as well.

artay · May 29, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

My ele isn't really about doing the highest dps possible, it's about working as a team to defeat the enemy mob or team. I do agree that elementalists need a buff but i disagree that they are crappy (i know this thread hasn't said that, but there are alot that do) I think that elementalists are just as equal to a warriors damage output but in a different way. Can a 5 warriors do 500 dmg to a single target, that ignores armour like in one mass obsid spike? no....(unless there is a new skill i dont know about).

Elementalists are just as potent as warriors, now lets get to the ele buffing!
maybe enemy ai slower to relise that meteor shower and other dot aoes, making them more effective?

lishi · May 29, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Ok you guys think ele suck.(your opinion , IMO they are fine)

tell us some suggestion to how fix that.

The OP one is simple retarted.

Trylo · May 29, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artay

My ele isn't really about doing the highest dps possible, it's about working as a team to defeat the enemy mob or team. I do agree that elementalists need a buff but i disagree that they are crappy (i know this thread hasn't said that, but there are alot that do) I think that elementalists are just as equal to a warriors damage output but in a different way. Can a 5 warriors do 500 dmg to a single target, that ignores armour like in one mass obsid spike? no....(unless there is a new skill i dont know about).

Finally someone listens to what I say about teamwork...

1 ele can take down the threat of 8+wars very fast with water hexes as all wars can do is run to a target. They will all be attacking a monk for pressure, right? yes, dont argue. Now that they are all nearby/adjacent, ice spikes, meteor, Grasping Earth, Ice Prison!!!! take your pick! You can get your SS/Empath necro to take care of the wars one at a time, i dont care, but eles are needed for this situation and many others. Snares = Good. Snares + War = pointless player.

ps ~ If i hear Meteor Shower one more time...

IT DOESNT WORK, use it with water hexes! thats the solution, use SNARES! get an assassin with return, or better yet go in, inferno, return, MS, will be hit with at least 3 at 10+ shadow magic! Find the builds to use the skills you want, dont ask for them to stand alone.

Ensign · May 29, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

I think that elementalists are just as equal to a warriors damage output but in a different way. Can a 5 warriors do 500 dmg to a single target, that ignores armour like in one mass obsid spike?

You're saying that elementalists can spike. This has not been contested. Elementalists are right in the thick of things when it comes to casters spiking (behind ritualists, ahead of monks, on par with necromancers), with mesmers being a special case since there are diminishing returns on adding more mesmers. Rangers of course spike harder than anything, and melee guys are deadly, but the positioning makes spiking less brainless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

maybe enemy ai slower to relise that meteor shower and other dot aoes, making them more effective?

I absolutely despise 'balancing' through making AI too inept to react to a situation in an intelligent manner. I'd rather be fighting smart foes, and have a game balanced for fighting smart foes, instead of a game balanced for killing training dummies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Ok you guys think ele suck.(your opinion , IMO they are fine)

At dealing damage. They are solid defensive / utility characters and have ok spike potential. I do not feel that the ability of an elementalist to deal damage is something that is subject to debate at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

tell us some suggestion to how fix that.

There are some issues that are simply built into the game and can't be addressed in any reasonable fashion. Those simply have to be written off as a quirk of the game system and worked around.

You of course have to address each skill individually and figure out why it's underperforming. The changes that make the most sense, to me, follow a couple of themes though:

1) Lower recharges. Most ele skills are restricted sufficiently by cost and cast time, long recharges just introduce a lot of downtime and crush utility.

2) Increase the armor-ignoring component of many damage spells. For fire spells, this means more and longer burning effects. For air, higher levels of armor penetration (at the cost of base damage in many cases).

3) Larger AoEs for your expensive spells that need to hit a lot of guys to be efficient. It's ridiculous that Energy Surge has a bigger AoE than anything from the fire line.

Some spells need to have their effects adjusted or whatnot, but those 3 would fix a nice majority of the spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

1 ele can take down the threat of 8+wars very fast with water hexes as all wars can do is run to a target. They will all be attacking a monk for pressure, right? yes, dont argue.

Eight warriors all attacking one monk is the most retarded scenario you can think of. Teams never have eight warriors, at most they have four. Usually with a warrior you attack whatever target is both soft and will let you take free shots at them - that's usually midline casters like elementalists and mesmers. When building up you pick different targets to minimize the effects of AoE, and to maximize the disruption that your warriors are causing. Two warriors attacking one guy forces that one guy to kite - two warriors on two different targets makes two guys kite. You only converge on a target if that target needs to be chased, or if you're going to unload adrenaline on him.

You're not allowed to present unrealistically bad scenarios as a basis for your argument, and reject all criticism of that basis. I like the dual nature of water snares, how you can use them offensively to support your warriors or defensively to hamper theirs. But I'm not about to pretend that I'm going to be able to hit all of their melee guys outside of carefully timed situations (I.E., when I can see them converging to spike).

But to reiterate the point that has been driven home so many times - water snares do not constitute dealing damage to a target. Water snares on a warrior do not even come close to dealing damage to another team.

Peace,
-CxE

MCS · May 29, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What Ensign Said
Peace,
-CxE

QTF, I didn't actually read it but I know he just crushed some egos, a thread about buffing eles :\.

Trylo · May 29, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Eight warriors all attacking one monk is the most retarded scenario you can think of. Teams never have eight warriors, at most they have four.

The dont argue part, that was because i knew this was an unrealistic scenario, no that I dont know it. I was just stating where they are useful, even if it is a bit unrealistic, but comparing warriors and ele? mhmm, thats two close classes there arent they? I was just trying to compare how a war spike attempt differs from an ele spike, and yes war spikes dont really come up often in that sense of 8 v 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

two warriors on two different targets makes two guys kite.

From my experience, only inexperienced RA warriors attack different targets as that minimizes damage and a monk can heal easier...

Symbol · May 29, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

From my experience, only inexperienced RA warriors attack different targets as that minimizes damage and a monk can heal easier...

Your experience is wrong. It's far easier for a monk to heal/prot one target than two. Not only does it reduce the problem of overhealing, but it makes your damage mitigation (guardian, RoF) more effective.

Ganging up is fine in RA when there isn't a monk present, but generally suboptimal otherwise.

Trylo · May 29, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Personally i find it easier to heal two people being a monk, but that is just me i guess... I also found it easy to survive 3 wars attacking me at once...Shield of Regen + gaurdian

And that is how easy it is to stop a war's attacks.

artay · May 29, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Ensign in your other thread you explain how warrios have a higher dps over a period of time. The whole basis of your argument is based on the untrue fact that warrs will attack the same target whithout disruption, blind, weakness, knockdown etc for a minute or more! If you have had any experience in PvP you would know that a warriors dps is easily shutdown, alot of the time, by a ele.

And your missing the fact that we have monks! dps is absolute crap when there is a monk and spiking is more effective. the fact that warriors have a higher dps is ludocris, because eles arent supposed to have high dps!! they are meant to have the highest hits in the game with SINGLE attacks.

/ontopic
Perhaps spells get bonuses if opponent is attacking like smiting?

Phades · May 29, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

Ensign in your other thread you explain how warrios have a higher dps over a period of time. The whole basis of your argument is based on the untrue fact that warrs will attack the same target whithout disruption, blind, weakness, knockdown etc for a minute or more! If you have had any experience in PvP you would know that a warriors dps is easily shutdown, alot of the time, by a ele.

You rate ability in a vaccume in order to compare properly. Also, if the ele is blinding a warrior, its dps is going through the floor with each casting every 10s or so. This is also ignoring the obvious energy requirement issues as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

And your missing the fact that we have monks! dps is absolute crap when there is a monk and spiking is more effective. the fact that warriors have a higher dps is ludocris, because eles arent supposed to have high dps!! they are meant to have the highest hits in the game with SINGLE attacks.

Actually monks lower spike damage more effectivly than dps. Dps is more difficult to heal as well, especially when it is spread out between several targets. Eles also do not have the single highest damage hit in the game, warriors do. If you actually read the thread you claimed to have read, you would have noticed that the calculations were made without any attack skills for the warrior compared to using every skill available with an elementalist while using impossible to maintain energy managment.

NatalieD · May 29, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by artay

Ensign in your other thread you explain how warrios have a higher dps over a period of time. The whole basis of your argument is based on the untrue fact that warrs will attack the same target whithout disruption, blind, weakness, knockdown etc for a minute or more! If you have had any experience in PvP you would know that a warriors dps is easily shutdown, alot of the time, by a ele.

You just accused Ensign of lacking PVP experience.

Do you really have no idea how ridiculous you look right now?

Symbol · May 29, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

If you actually read the thread you claimed to have read, you would have noticed that the calculations were made without any attack skills for the warrior compared to using every skill available with an elementalist while using impossible to maintain energy managment.

Actually this isn't true. Ensign compared warrior dps to strike/orb and flarespam to show how inefficient elementalist damage in terms of energy and skill slot usage, not to show that "a warrior without skills does more damage than an elementalist with skills"

Master Fuhon · May 30, 2006, 12:10 AM // 00:10

I think the original poster wants to play as a siege turtle rather than an elementalist, but I think the "bombardier class" concept is overpowered as long as death penalties are still around.

Nuking goes hand in hand with holding position. There is no talk about Elementalist balance without forcing people to have to hold a position for a long amount of time. The area of effect of such spells must corespond to the vicinity of the area being held. Elementalist spells need to be the kinds of ones that force the team to reconsider the cost of holding the position for the damage taken. So spell effect size is a posibility.

I would rather see some GvG tasks relegated to mandatory tanking, such as claiming a resource/opening the gate to a base where such a team would need to survive by holding position for an extended amount of time. There you have your reason for an elementalist. Right now its a matter of the most nimble character beating you to your spot to get all the rewards.

Mandy Memory · May 30, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Actually this isn't true. Ensign compared warrior dps to strike/orb and flarespam to show how inefficient elementalist damage in terms of energy and skill slot usage, not to show that "a warrior without skills does more damage than an elementalist with skills"

Yet he managed to prove it by posting those numbers, which were higher than what an ele could reach. Aparently he proved a point without making it...That Ensign is some guy, no wonder a large portion of the GW population worships him as their source of truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

I think the original poster wants to play as a siege turtle rather than an elementalist, but I think the "bombardier class" concept is overpowered as long as death penalties are still around.

Nuking goes hand in hand with holding position. There is no talk about Elementalist balance without forcing people to have to hold a position for a long amount of time. The area of effect of such spells must corespond to the vicinity of the area being held. Elementalist spells need to be the kinds of ones that force the team to reconsider the cost of holding the position for the damage taken. So spell effect size is a posibility.

I would rather see some GvG tasks relegated to mandatory tanking, such as claiming a resource/opening the gate to a base where such a team would need to survive by holding position for an extended amount of time. There you have your reason for an elementalist. Right now its a matter of the most nimble character beating you to your spot to get all the rewards.

Like an alter? I remember seeing these somewhere....